Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Ed Dove wrote:

I thought we were trying to change the classes as little as possible, so we were trying to create human classes with the same saving throws as the demi-human classes they'd replace.  So I thought Barbarians, Exotics & Rangers would have the same saving throws as Dwarfs, Elves & Halflings because they'd be just as tough, mystical or elusive as Dwarfs, Elves & Halflings are.

Thanks for jumping in, Ed, you took the words right out of my mouth.

A little hand-waving goes a long way, and you must do this if you want to avoid rocking the boat too much.

For the record, I'm not giving the Ranger or Barbarian advancing attack bonuses. It doesn't work like that in the core rules, so I'm not going to mess with it here either.

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

timmyd wrote:

Thanks for jumping in, Ed...

You're most welcome!

timmyd wrote:

...I'm not giving the Ranger or Barbarian advancing attack bonuses. It doesn't work like that in the core rules, so I'm not going to mess with it here either.

I can see that.  But I've thought of a reason to give the Ranger a very limited advancing attack bonus, though...

Previously, we'd considered replacing the Halfling's weapon use limitations with double encumbrance from oversized items for the Ranger.  But, now, I think that might result in the same sort of undesirable absurdities as double encumbrance from armor did.  So, instead, I thought of this:

Rangers have a Missile Attack Bonus of Level+1 ONLY WHEN UNENCUMBERED.


So, now, my demi-human => human conversions are:

Dwarf => Barbarian
Change "Architecture" to "Bushcraft".

Elf => Exotic
Change "Search" to whichever Specialist skill is the most culturally appropriate for wherever the character is from.

Halfling => Ranger
"Stealth" usable only when Unencumbered.
Replace weapon restrictions with Missile Attack Bonus = Level+1 when Unencumbered.

Anybody see any problems?

Last edited by Ed Dove (2011-09-14 07:58:11)

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

I'm kinda tempted to add...

Mêlée Attack Bonus = Level+1 when Unencumbered

...to the Barbarian.

It'd represent the stereotypically barbarian ability to fight well, but only hand-to-hand, and only when not constrained by too much armor.

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Does the Exotic still suffer/benefit from spells in the same way as the Elf?

If so, what would be the rationalization?

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Lord Inar wrote:

Does the Exotic still suffer/benefit from spells in the same way as the Elf?

If so, what would be the rationalization?

Yes.

The way I've been imagining it, the Exotic is some weird foreigner who's so mystically tuned-in to Chaos that he can do magic one-handed in heavy armor.  So, while he's not actually a creature born of Chaos like an Elf, he's still so connected to Chaos that he's affected by everything just like an Elf would be.

(I'd been assuming that the only significant difference between an Exotic and an Elf is that an Exotic ages as normal for a human.  But, hey, maybe Exotics are so mystical that they don't even age.)

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Ed Dove wrote:
Lord Inar wrote:

Does the Exotic still suffer/benefit from spells in the same way as the Elf?

If so, what would be the rationalization?

Yes.

The way I've been imagining it, the Exotic is some weird foreigner who's so mystically tuned-in to Chaos that he can do magic one-handed in heavy armor.  So, while he's not actually a creature born of Chaos like an Elf, he's still so connected to Chaos that he's affected by everything just like an Elf would be.

(I'd been assuming that the only significant difference between an Exotic and an Elf is that an Exotic ages as normal for a human.  But, hey, maybe Exotics are so mystical that they don't even age.)

Ed, you've done a masterful job with this one, and even convinced me to use it in my campaign, although I'm not keen on the class name.

To the thesaurus!

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

timmyd wrote:

Ed, you've done a masterful job with this one...

*BLUSH* Thanks!

timmyd wrote:

...although I'm not keen on the class name.

Me either. It's just the best I've come up with so far. I think it's better than "Specialist" (which really should be "Adventurer"), but that's about it.

The best alternatives I've found are Mystic and Sorceror -- neither of which even imply that the person is a foreigner -- and terms like Fakir, Guru, Swami and Yogi -- all of which are really Clerics, not Magic-Users.

If neither "Exotic" nor "Exotic Foreigner" do it for you, how about "Foreign Mystic" or "Exotic Sorceror"?

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Illuminatus? not really a common term, but descriptive (enlightened one)

Warrior/Mage? Less inspired but it gets the point across. And in literature, who were the great warrior/mages but those who were tainted with chaos: Elric and Kane?

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Lord Inar wrote:

Illuminatus? Not really a common term, but descriptive (enlightened one)

"Illuminatus" sounds good.  But it implies a member of a secret society, not a strange-looking individual from a far-away place.  And the "Elf" class is already powerful enough without adding the advantages of membership in a secret society to it.

Lord Inar wrote:

Warrior/Mage? Less inspired but it gets the point across. And in literature, who were the great warrior/mages but those who were tainted with chaos: Elric and Kane?

"Warrior/Mage" does get the point across.  But, before I used "Warrior/Mage", though, I'd probably just go with "Sorceror".  While it doesn't necessarily mean exactly what I want, it has the right flavor.  And isn't "Sorceror" what Elric and Kane were actually called?

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Just to bring you all up to speed on what I ended up doing with my group that kicked off two weeks ago:

Barbarian (based on Dwarf)
- Advance in Climb instead of Architecture
- Double benefit with Press attack option (i.e. +4 to-hit)

Ranger (based on Halfling)
- No weapon restrictions
- Special benefits only work when un- or lightly-encumbered (i.e. AC bonus when not surprised, and advanced Stealth)
- Extra benefit when using Aim for missile attacks (i.e. +6 to-hit)

I just abandoned finding an Elf replacement due to the odd nature of it. I may bring it back into my campaign if I find some inspiration. Right now the Cleric doesn't exist, and the Sorcerer is a magic-user with a modified spell list that includes most of the Cleric spells.

I expected some resistance from the players at the limited number of class options, but nobody blinked and everyone is having a good time.

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

I know this thread seemed to have run it's course but I was never satisfied with the human class substitute for the Elf class and the other day I had an idea:

The Elf could be played pretty much as it is written in the rules if we call it the Diabolist (Carcosa already has a Sorcerer class) and give it a couple of weird tweaks.

Basically, these spellcasters have made a dark pact of some kind to learn their magic. Because of that, they cast in different ways from the regular magic users who learned it the hard way, so Diabolists can cast while encumbered by armour. They have a few extra-demensional entities "riding" their souls so they are affected by spells in the same ways as the Elf (immune to Charm and Sleep, no benefit from Bless etc). Also, the voices in their heads makes it more difficult for them to be surprised (1 chance in 6) and gives them a better search skill (which progresses as levels increase and more voices join in...). Obviously they have a Chaotic alignment.

All this is a merely a new explanation for the current writeup for the class. I think it would be fun to make changes to how they learn spells.

Because of how they originally learned their skills there is no guarantee the Diabolist knows the Read Magic spell. He would start with 1D3+1 random spells at first level.

A diabolist could still transcribe a spell from a scroll in the same way as a Magic User but it would take the spell level times 2D6 days because of their lack of discipline; it's just harder for them.

They don't research spells though. Each time a Diabolist levels he/she gets a chance to perform a ritual to learn a new spell. The DM may determine if the ritual has to be completed before levelling again or be lost. Personally, I don't see why they should have to do it right away as they'd have lots of good reasons to want to wait.

The ritual would be fast, taking level times 1D6 hours to complete. As usual the PC would decide how long to spend on the ritual before completing it. In that time the the PC won't know if he/she has attracted the entity so it is still as chancy as the method used by the Magic User. The Diabolist concludes the ritual by killing a sacrifice. The sacrifice has to be a least a kind of medium-sized mammal (like a goat or dog) to bind the entity. If an entity is bound to the Diabolist he/she then spends 2D6 hours unconscious experiencing horrific nightmares as he/she fights for control of his body and soul. The character has to save vs Spells. If he/she fails the save he/she is marked by the entity. Some change that identifies them as servants of Chaos. Something like horns, vestigial/useless wings, cloven feet, a random and unnatural skin colour, etc. Kev actually came up with a great table in his Class Adjustments thread that would be a fantastic place to start. Once the character wakes up, he/she can add one random spell of the desired level spell to his/her Spellbook in a mad frenzy of activity. The costs of the ritual and transcription would be the double what a Magic User would roll for transcribing a spell (ie 20 sp per hour of ritual).

Now just to add a darker element to the class, a human could be sacrificed for an advantage in the ritual. If a human sacrifice is used, the Diabolist either gets a +2 to the Save vs Spells or a second randomly determined spell.

To learn a specific spell or create a new one a human sacrifice would be necessary and would give no extra bonuses. The time to attract an entity with such specific knowledge increases the time and cost of the ritual. Going up to level time 3D6 hours and requiring 30 sp per hour in materials. DMs may require Con checks or Poison saves to for the character to stay awake long enough to complete the ritual. If the Diabolist falls asleep, he/she doesn't lose the one chance per level, but does need to start over with new materials (with the exception of the sacrifice, unless it escapes while the Diabolist is asleep). The DM could still require the save vs Spells though, as the current entities riding the character's soul take advantage of his/her weakness to mark him again.

It wouldn't take long before the character was wearing loose clothing, gloves and a heavy, hooded cloak. I wouldn't mark them at first level, but I would have other clues to how they are just a little off. Things like dogs always barking at them or horses don't like them (maybe add 1d6x10% to the cost of a mount to reflect the difficulty in finding one that will let a Diabolist ride it).

So I think that solves the human/elf class problem with a weird fantasy twist. Let me know what you think.



Here's the link to Kev's table I mentioned earlier:

http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/discussion/top … justments/

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

David wrote:

...I was never satisfied with the human class substitute for the Elf class...

Me neither.  I thought my "Exotic Foreigner" idea worked conceptually, but we never found a good name for it.

David wrote:

The Elf could be played pretty much as it is written in the rules if we call it the Diabolist (Carcosa already has a Sorcerer class) and give it a couple of weird tweaks.

I like that idea.  "Diabolist" conveys a significantly darker use of magic than even "Sorcerer" does.  And it puts the class directly in conflict with Clerics -- especially if they're renamed "Exorcists".

David wrote:

Basically, these spellcasters have made a dark pact of some kind to learn their magic. Because of that, they cast in different ways from the regular magic users who learned it the hard way, so Diabolists can cast while encumbered by armour. They have a few extra-demensional entities "riding" their souls so they are affected by spells in the same ways as the Elf (immune to Charm and Sleep, no benefit from Bless etc). Also, the voices in their heads makes it more difficult for them to be surprised (1 chance in 6) and gives them a better search skill (which progresses as levels increase and more voices join in...). Obviously they have a Chaotic alignment.

All this is a merely a new explanation for the current writeup for the class.

All that seems like at least a good enough explanation to me.

David wrote:

Because of how they originally learned their skills there is no guarantee the Diabolist knows the Read Magic spell. He would start with 1D3+1 random spells at first level.

I think it'd make more sense to say that Read Magic is always the first thing the "entities" enable a Diabolist to do.  Otherwise, how could they read the spells in their spellbook to learn them?

David wrote:

A diabolist could still transcribe a spell from a scroll in the same way as a Magic User but it would take the spell level times 2D6 days because of their lack of discipline; it's just harder for them.

I can see that.  But I think it makes sense only if they can Read Magic.  Otherwise, they shouldn't be able to do it at all.

Also, if the "entities" were to help them by guiding their hand, then it'd actually be easier for them.  So it might make the most sense to figure that their lack of discipline and the help of the "entities" cancel each other out.

David wrote:

They don't research spells though. Each time a Diabolist levels he/she gets a chance to perform a ritual to learn a new spell.

I like that.  That makes sense.

David wrote:

The DM may determine if the ritual has to be completed before levelling again or be lost. Personally, I don't see why they should have to do it right away as they'd have lots of good reasons to want to wait.

I agree.  They should be able to wait however long they want.  Levelling just makes it so they can.

David wrote:

The ritual would be fast, taking level times 1D6 hours to complete.

I could see it being even faster than that.  But that seems fast enough to me.

David wrote:

As usual the PC would decide how long to spend on the ritual before completing it. In that time the the PC won't know if he/she has attracted the entity so it is still as chancy as the method used by the Magic User. The Diabolist concludes the ritual by killing a sacrifice. The sacrifice has to be a least a kind of medium-sized mammal (like a goat or dog) to bind the entity. If an entity is bound to the Diabolist he/she then spends 2D6 hours unconscious experiencing horrific nightmares as he/she fights for control of his body and soul. The character has to save vs Spells. If he/she fails the save he/she is marked by the entity. Some change that identifies them as servants of Chaos. Something like horns, vestigial/useless wings, cloven feet, a random and unnatural skin colour, etc....Once the character wakes up, he/she can add one random spell of the desired level spell to his/her Spellbook in a mad frenzy of activity.

The only things I might change about that are possibly getting rid of the period of unconsciousness and allowing the Diabolist to write the new spell in their spellbook any time after they successfully complete the ritual.  That way, if somebody tried to stop the ritual, they could try to complete it then, fight or flee, and write down the new spell later.

David wrote:

The costs of the ritual and transcription would be the double what a Magic User would roll for transcribing a spell (ie 20 sp per hour of ritual).

Because Diabolists don't need to invest in either libraries or laboratories, I think it might be better if rituals were alot more expensive than that -- giving Diabolists more need for money.

David wrote:

Now just to add a darker element to the class, a human could be sacrificed for an advantage in the ritual.

I like that.  That makes sense.

David wrote:

If a human sacrifice is used, the Diabolist either gets a +2 to the Save vs Spells or a second randomly determined spell.

To give Diabolists even more incentive to perform human sacrifices, I'd make the saving throw bonus they give alot bigger and also make them significantly shorten the time it takes to attract & bind the "entities".

David wrote:

To learn a specific spell or create a new one a human sacrifice would be necessary and would give no extra bonuses. The time to attract an entity with such specific knowledge increases the time and cost of the ritual.

Makes sense.

David wrote:

Going up to level time 3D6 hours and requiring 30 sp per hour in materials.

The time requirement seems fine to me.  But, again, I'd significantly increase the cost.

David wrote:

DMs may require Con checks or Poison saves to for the character to stay awake long enough to complete the ritual. If the Diabolist falls asleep, he/she doesn't lose the one chance per level, but does need to start over with new materials (with the exception of the sacrifice, unless it escapes while the Diabolist is asleep). The DM could still require the save vs Spells though, as the current entities riding the character's soul take advantage of his/her weakness to mark him again.

All that makes sense to me.

David wrote:

It wouldn't take long before the character was wearing loose clothing, gloves and a heavy, hooded cloak.

Nice!

David wrote:

I wouldn't mark them at first level...

I might not either.  But doing so would make them that little bit more exactly like the Elf.  So it would make sense.

David wrote:

...but I would have other clues to how they are just a little off. Things like dogs always barking at them or horses don't like them (maybe add 1d6x10% to the cost of a mount to reflect the difficulty in finding one that will let a Diabolist ride it).

Stuff like that might prove even more disadvantageous than some minor mark that could be hidden relatively easily.

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Thanks Ed, you make some good points!

I like the extra time for transcription because it means it's harder for them to do it the "honest" way but not impossible. I set the cost of the rituals low for the same reason. I wanted to make it a much easier way to gain magical knowledge through direct contact with Chaos so it's attractive. The real costs come with the slow transformation of PC. Also, the PC has to find a way to do this in secret. It's not like he/she can sacrifice a goat in his/her room in the inn without attracting the kind of attention that would get him'/her burned at the stake.

I like the need to write the spell down right away. Almost as though they are vomiting the forbidden knowledge onto the page. As for Read Magic, they don't need it for their awn spellbook, just everyone else's.

Your last comment makes sense. Those two things could just be added into a D20 table of marks. Maybe the player rolls or even chooses a single mark at first level. That way they start of the game, as you say, "a bit more exactly like an Elf."

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

David wrote:

Thanks Ed, you make some good points!

You're welcome!  Thanks!  I find this topic, and your ideas about it, very interesting.

David wrote:

I like the extra time for transcription because it means it's harder for them to do it the "honest" way but not impossible. I set the cost of the rituals low for the same reason. I wanted to make it a much easier way to gain magical knowledge through direct contact with Chaos so it's attractive. The real costs come with the slow transformation of PC. Also, the PC has to find a way to do this in secret. It's not like he/she can sacrifice a goat in his/her room in the inn without attracting the kind of attention that would get him'/her burned at the stake.

Makes sense.  You've convinced me.

David wrote:

I like the need to write the spell down right away. Almost as though they are vomiting the forbidden knowledge onto the page.

I like that aspect of it, too.  And, in the context of having gained the knowledge during the period of unconsciousness, it's also like having to remember the details of a dream right away or forget them.  So, especially if you keep the period of unconsciousness, having to write down the spell right away makes sense.

I was just trying to consider modifications that might both give the class a little more flexibility and also possibly lead to more interesting action & drama.  But I do like the period of unconsciousness & need to write the spell down right away, too.  They just seem right and also force Diabolists to perform their rituals in extreme secrecy with extreme security, both of which also seem right.

David wrote:

As for Read Magic, they don't need it for their awn spellbook, just everyone else's.

Ahhh...yes.  Of course.  That makes sense.  For some reason, I forgot that's how it works.  D'oh!

But that does mean they'd need Read Magic to be able to transcribe a spell from either a scroll or somebody else's spellbook, right?

David wrote:

Your last comment makes sense. Those two things could just be added into a D20 table of marks.

Thanks.  I think that's a good idea.  Though, if we can think of 100 appropriate marks, I think a d100 table would be even better so the marks would be that much more varied & random.

David wrote:

Maybe the player rolls or even chooses a single mark at first level. That way they start of the game, as you say, "a bit more exactly like an Elf."

As much as I'm usually in favor of as much player choice as playably possible, in this case, I think random determination is what's right for this class.

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

I've been calling the Dwarf a Brute and switching their Architecture bonus to Open Doors. I always pictured them as the guys who win bar fights not because they hit the other guy more (though they still get those fighting options), but because they just take a god awful amount of punishment without going down. Like Homer in that one Simpsons episode where he's a boxer, he only wins because everyone else gets tired of breaking his face in.

Dwarf > Brute
Architecture > Open Doors
Preserve Encumbrance
Preserve Fighting Options

The Halfling became a Vagabond with 5 in climb and 3 in languages. They have a knack for getting into places they shouldn't be, and because of all their travelling have experience with a lot of languages. You can preserve the weapon encumbrances as a Vagabond needs to be able to move quickly to get out of any trouble he's been in.

Halfling > Vagabond
Stealth > Climb
Bushcraft > Languages
Preserve Weapon Limits
Preserve Dex Bonus

The Elf was the only one I could never get a good substitute for, but I like the Diabolist and all it's fluff. The only thing I noticed is that you did away with the Fighting bonuses. Was that intentional or did I just miss it?

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Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Hey Golempuddy!

I like your vagabond and brute classes!

I left the fighting bonuses out for the Diabolist because I wasn't going to change them from the original elf class. They can parry and press just as effectively as the Elf. I don't think I would add any level based bonuses to hit for the diabolist either because it doesn't fit and could unbalance the game. They are focussed on the quick path to power through diabolical magic, extra training with weapons seems like a waste of time for such characters.

Last edited by David (2012-03-10 09:39:28)

Re: Human-only Setting - Variant classes to replace demi-humans

Ah, gotcha.

I guess those spirits riding the Diabolist around have given him a few pointers on how to fight. I mean, they wouldn't want their host to perish so easily, would they?

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