• Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Topic: Classless LotFP

This topic is to discuss the concept of classless LotFP.

I'm not interested in reasons why you shouldn't do it, but rather, having decided to do it, how would you go about it from an academic standpoint.

The purpose is threefold:

1) It's fun! (I love tinkering, like most other gamers)

2) It will help give me/us a better understanding of the game!

3) It might actually work!

I would never suggest that this is the way it SHOULD be done.

There I think I'm done with my disclaimers. I'll start with content in the next post.

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

What makes a class?

1) Hit points
2) Skill points
3) Bonus to hit
4) Spellcasting
5) Saving Throws
6) Bonus to attribute
7) Combat technique

1) Hit Points:
Let's ignore the MU for a moment and say that the default is 1d6
You could then increase your die to either d8 or d10

2) Skill Points:
Skill points are earned individually

3) Bonus to hit:
This is fairly obvious.

4) Spellcasting:
MU or Cleric spells, can't cast while more than lightly encumbered by definition
Advances could remove this restriction

5) Saving Throws
Everyone should start off with a given set of saving throws:
Pa:14, Po:13, BW:16, MD:14, M:15.

6) Bonus to attribute:
+1 to any of the attributes (like the dwarf or halfling)

7) Combat technique:
Improved Parry Press and defend

Last edited by Lord Inar (2011-10-03 18:05:02)

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

So, just starting by assigning potential points to these:

1) Hit points (needs to be taken each level to get effect, may be taken once per level))
1 pt: d8
2 pt: for d10
3 pt: for d12

2) Skill points (may be taken twice at chargen, once per level)
1 pt: 1 skill pt
2 pt: 1 pt in two skills
3 pt: 2 points in one skill

3) Bonus to hit (May be taken once during chargen, and once per level)
2 pt: +1
5 pt: +2

4) Spellcasting (May be taken once during chargen, and once per level)
2pt: Move up a level in spellcasting (use either MU or cleric table depending on type taken)

5) Saving Throws (May be taken twice during chargen, and once every other level)
1 pt: Add 1 to each
1 pt: Add 2 to two of the five

6) Bonus to attribute (maybe taken once at chargen, once every four levels and never on the same attribute)
2 pt: Add 1

7) Combat technique (only need to do once)
1 pt: Defense/Parry bonus
1 pt: Push

8) Armor usage with spells  (only need to do once)
1 pt: Cast spells while heavily encumbered (like an elf)
3 pt: May cast spells with any encumbrance (2 pts if you already have the ability to cast spells while heavily encumbered)

9) Miscellaneous (only need to do once)
2 pt: to increase encumbrance
2 pt: to allow con bonus to hp after 9th level
2 pt: to memorize and additional spell per level (doesn't affect # of spells that can be cast)
2 pt: only surprised on 1 in d6

Characters get 8 points to start and 3 points per level.
One point may be saved and carried over into the next level.

Experience point progression is that of the fighter and halfling, since it is somewhat mid-range and it is a nice even number (2,000 XP base).

Last edited by Lord Inar (2011-10-24 17:53:16)

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

One approach with spellcasters is to simply not allow people to be both cleric and MU (this would be in line with current LotFP world view).

If you wanted to do this however, you could simply say that whenever considering if a character is Lawful or Chaotic, you use whichever one is WORSE.

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

First Level builds:

These don't correlate 1:1 with the levels, but the spirit is there.
I had to add in my house-rule about MUs to get them on a par with the others.

Cleric build (8 pts):
+1 to hit: 2 pts
Spell casting: 2 pts
Any encumbered: 3 pts
Improve Saving Throw: increase two by 2 (Poison and Magical Device): 1 pt

Fighter build (8 pts):
+2 to hit: 5 pts
1d8 hit points: 1 pt
Both combat technique: 2 pts

MU build (8 pts):
+1 to hit: 2 pts
Spell casting: 2 pts
Improve Saving Throw: increase 2 by 2 (Paralysis and Magical Device):  1 pt
Increased spell memorization: 2 pts
+1 skill Language: 1 pt

Specialist Build (8 pts)
+1 to hit: 2 pts
2 skill pts in one skill: 3
2 skill pts in one skill: 3

Elf Build (8 pts)
+1 to hit: 2 pts
Spell casting: 2 pts
Heavily encumbered: 1 pt
Defense/Parry technique: 1 pt
Only surprised on a 1: 2 pts

Dwarf Build (8 pts):
+1 to hit: 2 pts
d10 hp: 2 pts
Bonus saving throw +1 to all: 1 pt
Skill: Architecture 1 pt
Encumbrance increase: 2pts

Halfling build (8 pts)
Bonus saving throw +2 to all: 2 pts
Attribute increase: Dex +1: 2 pts
2 skill pts in Stealth: 3 pt
1 pt in bushcraft: 1 pt

-------

These are not "classes" per se, just how you might build something similar to a class using this approach.

Last edited by Lord Inar (2011-10-21 20:33:01)

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

Here is how you might do some other iconic "classes"

Monk
+1 to hit: 2 pts
Spell casting: 2 pts (cleric spells)
Bonus saving throw +1 to all: 1 pt
Both combat techniques: 2 pts
1d8 hit points: 1 pt

Ranger
+1 to hit: 2 pts
Both combat technique: 2 pts
1d8 hit points: 1 pt
2 skill pts in Bushcraft: 3 pt

Paladin
+1 to hit: 2 pts
Spell casting: 2 pts (cleric spells)
Heavily encumbered: 1 pt
Improve Saving Throw: increase 2 by 2 (Poison and Breath Weapon):  1 pt
1d10 hit points: 2 pt

Healer
Spell casting: 2 pts (cleric spells)
Heavily encumbered: 1 pt
Increased spell memorization: 2 pts
Improve Saving Throw: increase 2 by 2 (Paralysis and Poison):  1 pt
Improve attribute (Wisdom): 2pts

Berserker
+1 to hit: 2 pts
+1 to Str: 2 pts
Push: 1 pt
Bonus saving throw +1 to all: 1 pt
1d10 hp: 2

Last edited by Lord Inar (2011-10-21 20:36:46)

  • Registered: 2011-05-04
  • Posts: 5

Re: Classless LotFP

I like the idea of a classless system.  Character generation would take longer, but that’s just a minor thing.
It’s a flexible enough system to easily adjust the point costs to fit the gaming group, or add new things specific to the campaign world.   It asks to be tinkered with.
I haven’t thoroughly thought this through yet, but this is my initial take:

1) Hit points
I would add 2 more options:
-1 pts: d4 (so you get an extra point to spend elsewhere)
4 pts: d12 (the d12 needs more use)

2) Skill points
I’m confused here…  Why would a specialist spend 6 pts to get 2 in 2 skills, instead of spending it on 6 times +1 on a skill?  I'm probably missing something.
I’d keep it at: 1 pnt for a +1 on a skill, and 2 pts to get a new skill at 1 dot.
With new skills I mean skills non-specialists don’t start with, like sneak attack, or made-up skills like first aid or lore.

3) Bonus to hit
I like the sneakiness of the +2 option being so expensive it can never be chosen on a level-up.

4) Spellcasting
For the type of spells, I’d make it solely depend on alignment.  Lawful->cleric, neutral->none, chaotic->mage.
And only make it available once every other level. (chargen, 3rd level, 5th level,…)

5) Saving Throws
I’m not sure about the starting saving throw numbers, but that’s just tweaking minor details.

6) Bonus to attribute
Seems like a good system.  No more “why can’t I raise my STR by lifting weights for 6 months?”

7) Combat technique
Less package deal for more versatility:
1 pt: Improved Parry
1 pt: Press
1 pt: Defend

8) Armor usage with spells
I would rephrase to “3 points to cast spells at any encumbrance (like a cleric, only need to do once)”, and remove the need to take the other one first.

9) Misc
2 pt:  Only surprised on 1 in d6

And then we open the pit of min-maxing (only available once each, and only during creation):
Decreased saving throws: get 1 pt to substract 1 from each, or 2 from 2 of the 5
Decreased attribute: get 2 pts to substract 1
Increased xp table: get 1 pt to use the dwarf xp table, get 2 pts to use the elf xp table.

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

Thanks for the well-thought out response!

I'll try to tackle them one at a time.
First, I haven't thought about negatives, so I'm not sure how they would impact things either.
I purposely chose 3 points per level with the ability to carry over one point into the next level for the kind of balance to keep things from getting too out of hand. I believe the Fighter, Cleric, Elf, Specialist and maybe halfling all pretty much average out to three points per level. The MU is always low and the dwarf is currently front-loaded with abilities and then has a relatively weak progression.

1) If incorporating negative modifiers then I can see the d4. The d12 is good (although maybe just 3 pts, since that takes an entire advance)

2) It is primarily to encourage diversification. It could easily be one point per (although I did tinker with this to get the Specialist to be 8 pts)

3) Yes, chargen only!

4) Actually, I realize I didn't clarify that quite so well.
Yes, the alignment/casting type rule is still there (although I gave a not quite as tempting out for someone who wanted to do both), and what I meant by go up one level was go up one level as if going up a level on the experience point table, but I like the general every other level too. That would prevent the phenomenon of someone spending points for no tangible benefit.

5) The saving throw numbers came out of another discussion on the boards about what was a 0th level human. Essentially, you start at 2 worse than the worst score of any of the classes.

6) Thanks, it's mildly AD&D in tone, but I think it works.

7) Works for me, although if you take defend, but not parry, you will never use the generic parry option, as it provides the same AC as defend without the attack.

8) OK, how about "May cast spells at any encumbrance: 3 pts (2 pts if you already have the ability to cast spells while heavily encumbered)"

9) I had forgotten about the elf ability, that's good.

As to you min/max pit, I guess I'd say that the DM makes a call at the start of the game as to whether any negative points can be used or not. If the whole group is made of powergamers, let'em take the negatives to tweak their characters!
Also for those who think it may make characters too powerful, just give adversaries an additional +1 to hit and/or AC and 25% more HP and they'll be good to go!

Also to add to the list: Use the same weapon restrictions as a halfling: -1

Thanks again for the insight!

I'll incorporate and post another version in a bit.

Another advantage of this is that it really easy to generate NPCs of some unique ability, especially if they are retainers of the PCs. "Make four retainers, each have 4 points to spend, go!"

Thank you again for participating in my little thought experiment!

- Marc

Last edited by Lord Inar (2011-10-07 23:31:47)

  • Registered: 2011-05-04
  • Posts: 5

Re: Classless LotFP

1) I assumed the pt cost for hp was only bought at chargen, hence the 4 pts for the d12. 
If you're supposed to choose/buy the hit dice on each level-up, then 3 points for the d12 is better.  As for the -1 for d4 in this scenario...  I don't know if acquiring negative points on a level-up would be a good thing. 

3) I'm also thinking about 1 pt for a +1 bonus to melee or missile only, but this could quickly go out of control with a decent powergamer.

4) Ah, rows (experience levels) vs columns (spell levels)...
Both can work.  I went with columns because it allows a player to limit themselves to (for example) 1st level spells, but still gain the ability to cast more spells as they level. 

7) hadn't considered the defense vs standard parry issue.  Might as well keep your original idea.

I think "power creep" and "feature creep" are the 2 main issues with this (or any) point-based system.
Power creep can easily be handled, since everything accessible to players is accessible to the DM as well.  I generally don't worry about my players becoming too powerful; balancing encounters is not my thing, and in the end it's still the dice that dictate what happens.  It all depends on the playstyle of the group.
Feature creep is more of a problem for me, since I tend to keep adding stuff/options, needlesly complicating things.

-Mark

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

Hi Mark,

1) Yes, I should have made that clearer that the different hp could be bought at different levels, and it would probably cause problems with the d4 -1.

3) Yeah, in other topics, the +1 to hit being somewhat rare is a big feature of LotFP, so I didn't want to change that.

4) Looking at the lists again, I think it's easier to just use the levels as they are. I don't want to reinvent too many wheels!
I can't remember if you're allowed to "swap down" daily spells, but as a GM, I'd allow it. That would address characters wanting to cast lower level spells without limiting them to a choice they made earlier.

7) Maybe 1 pt for Defense/Parry and 1 for Push

I'm OK with resisting feature creep, I have other games that offer tons of options to scratch that itch. The only feature I added was the "memorize 1 extra spell" part which came out of discussions about how to make the stock MU a more desirable choice.

Thanks again!

- Marc

Last edited by Lord Inar (2011-10-08 16:02:47)

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

OK, I updated the list and the sample character builds (adding a berserker) to reflect the recent conversation.

  • Registered: 2011-10-18
  • Posts: 19

Re: Classless LotFP

It helps to deconstruct the system in terms of what has what effect (which can be save progressions, hit dice, what xp tables you use, etc). I just messed with it as i really like many aspects of the mechanics of lotfp that i'm considering using in my own game which is a mash of a lot of stuff. Actually running the numbers through excel or similar databases and making some graphs helps immensely in finding out what a change does.

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 81

Re: Classless LotFP

True, I love doing spreadsheets to figure out such things as well. I've done tons with dice probabilities and character generators. I saw your other posts, but I haven't had time to delve into them yet.

  • Registered: 2011-10-18
  • Posts: 19

Re: Classless LotFP

Lord Inar wrote:

True, I love doing spreadsheets to figure out such things as well. I've done tons with dice probabilities and character generators. I saw your other posts, but I haven't had time to delve into them yet.

I'd be happy to share the spreadsheets - as messy as they are...