• From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2011-06-03
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Topic: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

I've seen people describe three ways to play a Carcosan Sorcerer:

1) As a villain.

2) As a hero who uses only Banishing rituals, which don't require human sacrifices.

3) As an emotionally tortured anti-hero who reluctantly does whatever's necessary, no matter how evil, to keep the Great Old Ones imprisoned.


But I've thought of a way I've never seen mentioned to go about the third option:

Use Imprisoning rituals -- but ONLY with VOLUNTARY sacrifices.

A Sorcerer played this way probably would spend much of his time talking to people, explaining the situation, trying to convince them to voluntarily sacrifice themselves for the benefit of everyone else.

  • Vito
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

I like that.

Here's another idea:
a lawful "Lex Talionis" type.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
Do unto others as others have done unto you.

He performs human sacrifices as executions.
He hunts down binders, conjurers, and invokers and slays them in order to imprison and torment the beings they have called forth.

Is anybody running a Google+ game any time soon? I want to play this character.

  • Registered: 2011-12-19
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Human sacrifices as executions is actually a great idea. Instead of "just" killing the bad guys you use them as "fuel" for your rituals. Hmm ...

  • From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Vito wrote:

He performs human sacrifices as executions.  He hunts down binders, conjurers, and invokers and slays them in order to imprison and torment the beings they have called forth.

I like those ideas too.  But, because of the requirements of some Imprisoning rituals, often neither of those approaches would work.  Consider these requirements of some Imprisoning rituals:

"Eight children of the Bone Men must be slain by the Sorcerer with a knife of white or colorless quartz, and their blood poured upon the black cylinder or orb..."

"...he must rape a Jale female virgin, at the completion of which he must plunge into her heart a curved dagger of obsidian."

"A Dolm pregnant woman must then be strangled and her body cast into the water wherein is the Watery Death."

"Six Orange and six Purple female virgins must be slain as sacrifices."

"...he must then acquire a Jale female virgin between the ages of 10 and 12. The ritual can be performed only in the caverns, where the Sorcerer must deflower the virgin amidst the liquescent molds, such that his ecstasy is mingled with her suffocation."

"Four old Brown women must be strangled with a rusty iron cord..."

  • Vito
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Well obviously, Carcosan justice is convoluted and strangely specific.
That just means you need a good lawyer to help you find all the magical loopholes.

Take the whole rape thing for instance. How is rape defined here? That it should be non-consensual is a given, but what else? Does it have to be penis-to-vagina penetration? Couldn't you just stick anything into any orifice and call it rape? These great old ones will stick their tentacles and probosces into any warm hole they can find. Isn't that rape? If you just stuck your finger in the Jale woman's nose, would Cthulhu know the difference?

  • From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

You're joking, right?

  • Vito
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

I'm never more serious than when I'm joking.

Look, high level characters in D&D can build strongholds and attract followers, correct? You should be able to do that in Carcosa, right?

I'm saying, you make your stronghold a prison and a courthouse.

You police the lands, apprehend anyone suspected of conspiring with the great old ones, and put them on trial.
If found guilty, you throw them into a 10x10 foot cell until you are ready to use them.
If you do it right, you should end up with a diverse stable of potential sacrifices including members of all races, genders, and age groups, all of them justly deserving of their grisly fate. Perform the rituals as ethically and efficiently as feasibly possible and you should be able to imprison at least one or two of the great old ones with a clean conscience.

  • From: Rehovot, Israel
  • Registered: 2011-04-07
  • Posts: 78

Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

This kind of inquisition campaign sounds very interesting to me. The Inquisitor captures Sorcerers, then sacrifices them for his own sorceries - aimed at imprison the Great Old Ones once and for all.

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  • From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Vito wrote:

If you do it right, you should end up with a diverse stable of potential sacrifices including members of all races, genders, and age groups, all of them justly deserving of their grisly fate. Perform the rituals as ethically and efficiently as feasibly possible and you should be able to imprison at least one or two of the great old ones with a clean conscience.

That approach probably would eventually work for some of the Imprisoning rituals.  So it's certainly worth trying.  But good luck ever finding "Eight children" who DESERVE to be killed, or a "female virgin" who DESERVES to be raped and killed, or a "pregnant woman" whose unborn child DESERVES to die with her, or a "female virgin between the ages of 10 and 12" who DESERVES to be raped and killed.  Even with voluntary sacrifices, some Imprisoning rituals can't ever be performed with a completely clean conscience.

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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Ed Dove wrote:
Vito wrote:

If you do it right, you should end up with a diverse stable of potential sacrifices including members of all races, genders, and age groups, all of them justly deserving of their grisly fate. Perform the rituals as ethically and efficiently as feasibly possible and you should be able to imprison at least one or two of the great old ones with a clean conscience.

That approach probably would eventually work for some of the Imprisoning rituals.  So it's certainly worth trying.  But good luck ever finding "Eight children" who DESERVE to be killed, or a "female virgin" who DESERVES to be raped and killed, or a "pregnant woman" whose unborn child DESERVES to die with her, or a "female virgin between the ages of 10 and 12" who DESERVES to be raped and killed.  Even with voluntary sacrifices, some Imprisoning rituals can't ever be performed with a completely clean conscience.

Of course.

But I figure that any character that fancies himself a good guy is at least going to attempt some semantic acrobatics to try and weasel his way out of feeling guilt.

"No one deserves to be raped under any circumstances" one sorcerer might say "But what I did was not rape under any useful human definition of the word. It was only sufficiently similar enough to rape for the ritual to function."

Of course this sort of mindset can lead to people doing some really nasty deeds.

"I'm not evil. Evil is what my enemies do. This is justice!"

Last edited by Vito (2011-12-19 16:57:02)

  • From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Vito wrote:

...any character that fancies himself a good guy is at least going to attempt some semantic acrobatics to try and weasel his way out of feeling guilt.

I'm sure you're quite right about that.  I've noticed that almost everybody who thinks of themselves as "Good" is actually Neutral, but thinks they're Good just because they're not Evil.  And even some Evil people think they're Good too.  But people who actually are Good almost always think of themselves as merely trying to be Good.

Vito wrote:

...this sort of mindset can lead to people doing some really nasty deeds.

"I'm not evil. Evil is what my enemies do. This is justice!"

Quite right again.

  • Vito
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

The more I think about this executioner character I suggested, the more I see him as a crazy fascist nutjob like Torquemada from Nemesis: the Warlock.

Could make for a good antagonist. Hmmm...

  • Registered: 2010-08-28
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

There's no way you'd ever find more than one person willing to sacrifice themselves.

  • JimLotFP
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Ed Dove wrote:

some Imprisoning rituals can't ever be performed with a completely clean conscience.

... I can't complain about the discussion as a whole because, hey, I published Carcosa. But this thread is soooo weeeeiirrdd.

And the idea that a sorcerer on Carcosa would ever be plagued by a troubled conscience just sounds so bizarre.

"They deserve it because I wanted to do it and they couldn't stop me" with no more reflection or justification sounds about right. Shit, this is Carcosa, there are probably tons of Lawful types doing the same sorts of thing just for the hell of it, not because it would ever accomplish anything else.

And while the idea of playing out a ritual in detail does sound creepy to me ("I perform the ritual" would be good enough detail for me, thankyouverymuch), cheating the system by picking someone's nose and trying to pass that off as a rape... well... ritual failed, dude, and good luck from there because you're going to need it.

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  • From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

islan wrote:

There's no way you'd ever find more than one person willing to sacrifice themselves.

You wouldn't sacrifice yourself to save the world from Cthulhu?

  • From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

JimLotFP wrote:

...the idea that a sorcerer on Carcosa would ever be plagued by a troubled conscience just sounds so bizarre.

Why?

JimLotFP wrote:

"They deserve it because I wanted to do it and they couldn't stop me" with no more reflection or justification sounds about right.

For evil people, sure.  But not for anybody else.

JimLotFP wrote:

...this is Carcosa, there are probably tons of Lawful types doing the same sorts of thing just for the hell of it, not because it would ever accomplish anything else.

So?  Since when did other people doing the same or worse things ever justify anybody doing anything wrong?

JimLotFP wrote:

...the idea of playing out a ritual in detail does sound creepy to me ("I perform the ritual" would be good enough detail for me, thankyouverymuch)...

Not for me.  I want doing evil things to feel creepy in my games.  Anybody who wants their character to perform any Carcosan sorcery in any game I'm running will have to state out loud at least the first-person equivalent of the description of the ritual they want their character to perform.  If the player won't say it, then their character won't do it.

JimLotFP wrote:

...cheating the system by picking someone's nose and trying to pass that off as a rape... well... ritual failed, dude, and good luck from there because you're going to need it.

I agree.  That's how I would handle that kind of foolishness, too.

  • Registered: 2009-10-14
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Personally I don't understand the sort of peculiar obsession with being defined as good guy, does the every game session has to be full of justification, handholding and assurance to players that they are playing good guy heroes and they are doing good?


It would be more honest to look at what you like and why you like it, like say you want to chop off people's heads with battle axe like Conan the barbarian, being awesome fighter that kills people like it was nothing is the thing you are attracted to, not idea that it was actually mob full of always chaotic evil people and you were justified and it was all good and moral and wholesome and not at all about relishing some sort of power fantasy.


That said I'm content with statement of "I perform the ritual" instead of detailed description, because level of squick on Carcosa is too high on most of the stuff.

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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

MutieMoe wrote:

Personally I don't understand the sort of peculiar obsession with being defined as good guy, does the every game session has to be full of justification, handholding and assurance to players that they are playing good guy heroes and they are doing good?


It would be more honest to look at what you like and why you like it, like say you want to chop off people's heads with battle axe like Conan the barbarian, being awesome fighter that kills people like it was nothing is the thing you are attracted to, not idea that it was actually mob full of always chaotic evil people and you were justified and it was all good and moral and wholesome and not at all about relishing some sort of power fantasy.


That said I'm content with statement of "I perform the ritual" instead of detailed description, because level of squick on Carcosa is too high on most of the stuff.

Well, I can't speak for everybody here, but what I can tell you is that my own obsession with being a heroic do gooder in Carcosa stems from my obsession with "snatching _____ from the jaws of _____".
I want to be good in Carcosa because it's a challenge.
Someone held up a rape sign and a human sacrifice sign and said "This is what you do here" and I said "Fuck you. I'll take your rainbow people and your laser beams and do things my way." That's the kind of play that excites me.

In other words, I'm a special snowflake and a contentious asshole.

  • From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
  • Registered: 2011-06-03
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

MutieMoe wrote:

Personally I don't understand the sort of peculiar obsession with being defined as good guy, does the every game session has to be full of justification, handholding and assurance to players that they are playing good guy heroes and they are doing good?

It would be more honest to look at what you like and why you like it, like say you want to chop off people's heads with battle axe like Conan the barbarian, being awesome fighter that kills people like it was nothing is the thing you are attracted to, not idea that it was actually mob full of always chaotic evil people and you were justified and it was all good and moral and wholesome and not at all about relishing some sort of power fantasy.

Some people honestly like to play good-guy heroes who do justified, good, moral, wholesome things.  The reason why some people like that is because they relish fantasies of doing justified, good, moral, wholesome things beyond what they can in real life.  There's nothing more peculiar about their obsession than that of people who like to play awesome fighters who kill people like it was nothing because they relish some sort of power fantasy.  Some people just like to play characters who are better people than they really are while other people like to play characters who are worse people than they really are.  Neither obsession is especially peculiar.  What would be peculiar would be obsessively playing characters who are as much like oneself as possible in situations as much like one's real life as possible.  That would be odd.  And sadly unimaginative, too.

MutieMoe wrote:

That said I'm content with statement of "I perform the ritual" instead of detailed description, because level of squick on Carcosa is too high on most of the stuff.

Of course.  Squicky stuff interferes with relishing power fantasies.  That's why Carcosa is actually adverse to power-fantasy playing.  Carcosa is designed to shove the squicky underpinnings of power-fantasy play in players' faces.

  • From: Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Vito wrote:

I want to be good in Carcosa because it's a challenge.
Someone held up a rape sign and a human sacrifice sign and said "This is what you do here" and I said "Fuck you. I'll take your rainbow people and your laser beams and do things my way." That's the kind of play that excites me.

Me, too.

Vito wrote:

In other words, I'm a special snowflake and a contentious asshole.

I'm just a contentious asshole.

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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Ed Dove wrote:

I'm just a contentious asshole.

I'm more contentious than you are.

  • Registered: 2011-12-19
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

MutieMoe wrote:

Personally I don't understand the sort of peculiar obsession with being defined as good guy, does the every game session has to be full of justification, handholding and assurance to players that they are playing good guy heroes and they are doing good?


It would be more honest to look at what you like and why you like it, like say you want to chop off people's heads with battle axe like Conan the barbarian, being awesome fighter that kills people like it was nothing is the thing you are attracted to, not idea that it was actually mob full of always chaotic evil people and you were justified and it was all good and moral and wholesome and not at all about relishing some sort of power fantasy.


That said I'm content with statement of "I perform the ritual" instead of detailed description, because level of squick on Carcosa is too high on most of the stuff.

As one of the purveyors of said peculiarities I can say that it is rather cathartic, after doing a life sentence in the moral haze of the "real world", to play a game where good and evil, right and wrong, are starkly defined, and few problems cannot be solved with a fireball.  Not so much a power fantasy as a morality play, a spiritual enema even. 

You don't stop to think if the kobold has kids, the thing is frakkin evil so kill it with fire!

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  • Registered: 2011-11-15
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Ed Dove wrote:
Vito wrote:

He performs human sacrifices as executions.  He hunts down binders, conjurers, and invokers and slays them in order to imprison and torment the beings they have called forth.

I like those ideas too.  But, because of the requirements of some Imprisoning rituals, often neither of those approaches would work.  Consider these requirements of some Imprisoning rituals:

"Eight children of the Bone Men must be slain by the Sorcerer with a knife of white or colorless quartz, and their blood poured upon the black cylinder or orb..."

Etc., etc.

You can make these sacrifices work as acts of justice if the character believes in an ancient concept of tribal justice, i.e. an entire community is guilty of the sins of its members.  Not to stir up a religious debate here, but the God of the Old Testament authorizes quite a few atrocities that can only be explained by this theory.

  • Registered: 2009-10-14
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

Ed Dove wrote:
MutieMoe wrote:

Personally I don't understand the sort of peculiar obsession with being defined as good guy, does the every game session has to be full of justification, handholding and assurance to players that they are playing good guy heroes and they are doing good?

It would be more honest to look at what you like and why you like it, like say you want to chop off people's heads with battle axe like Conan the barbarian, being awesome fighter that kills people like it was nothing is the thing you are attracted to, not idea that it was actually mob full of always chaotic evil people and you were justified and it was all good and moral and wholesome and not at all about relishing some sort of power fantasy.

Some people honestly like to play good-guy heroes who do justified, good, moral, wholesome things.  The reason why some people like that is because they relish fantasies of doing justified, good, moral, wholesome things beyond what they can in real life.  There's nothing more peculiar about their obsession than that of people who like to play awesome fighters who kill people like it was nothing because they relish some sort of power fantasy.  Some people just like to play characters who are better people than they really are while other people like to play characters who are worse people than they really are.  Neither obsession is especially peculiar.  What would be peculiar would be obsessively playing characters who are as much like oneself as possible in situations as much like one's real life as possible.  That would be odd.  And sadly unimaginative, too.

MutieMoe wrote:

That said I'm content with statement of "I perform the ritual" instead of detailed description, because level of squick on Carcosa is too high on most of the stuff.

Of course.  Squicky stuff interferes with relishing power fantasies.  That's why Carcosa is actually adverse to power-fantasy playing.  Carcosa is designed to shove the squicky underpinnings of power-fantasy play in players' faces.

You miss the point, it is more like some people like to play total murderous dipshits and then still pretend they are not actually playing such but they are actually play good-guy heroes who do justified, good, moral, wholesome things. We are talking about Carcosa sorcerers afterall.

You can tell me your character thinks of himself as good guy while he is actually tombrobbing, murdeorous dipshit on path of becoming another one of those petty warlords with outrageous titles, I'm fine with that but if you expect me to give confirmation you actions are all good "Because he is the good guy!" I would say there disagreement on the matter.
Any talk of doing serial killer stuff like some of the Carcosa rituals and insisting that you character is really good guy well, I don't know but I would think of that other than that maybe you should not try justify them OOC because that is just weird.

You can play whatever you think as good guy but if you would be playing in my game table I would not be telling you that guy whose face your character bashed in was unrelentingly evil or more spesifically I won't be saying that your character is good. Gameworld reacts according to what they thought of now dead guy, if he was thought as dipshit sorcerer by locals they propably think of your character as hero, if he was thought as their spritual leader and holy man they propably react to your character as complete monster.

I might make judgement based on did that act align you with fighting against law or chaos or was it irrelevant on that grand scheme of things.

Last edited by MutieMoe (2011-12-22 10:11:28)

  • Registered: 2009-10-14
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Re: I thought of a different way to play a Carcosan Sorcerer.

purestrainhuman wrote:

As one of the purveyors of said peculiarities I can say that it is rather cathartic, after doing a life sentence in the moral haze of the "real world", to play a game where good and evil, right and wrong, are starkly defined, and few problems cannot be solved with a fireball.  Not so much a power fantasy as a morality play, a spiritual enema even. 

You don't stop to think if the kobold has kids, the thing is frakkin evil so kill it with fire!

Well better example would be the tiring old "orc babies" one that you kill the kobolds kids, my opinion in such example would that DM is dick by putting the players in the situation as this apparently is standard fare D&D example as kobolds and fireballs would suggest and player is kind of questionable if he insists on that he is still playing a good guy.  AD&D morality with added good and evil and it's justifications I don't think really fit to Carcosa and it might not be the best choise for such cathartic exercise without heavy modifications.

Last edited by MutieMoe (2011-12-22 10:08:23)