Topic: motivating players

Regarding Insurrection At Death Frost Doom and Horror in the Sandbox I: Learning From Failed Runs of Raggi’s Modules, it is ridiculous to expect a module to provide an enjoyable experience if the players refuse to participate in the spirit of the thing. They have agreed to play a game called Dungeons & Dragons. If they lack motivation to expose their imaginary adventurer to danger, that's not a problem with the module.

Why do you want to explore the dungeon? "Because it's there."

Re: motivating players

I always thought that danger is a given, and so that broadcasting "Danger is HERE!" it's the same thing as saying "Here's some adventure, right here, only adventurers need apply." And the players showed up to play adventurers adventuring, right?

Re: motivating players

Here's another similar report: S&W Sessions Journal: So Much for the Stargazer

The LotFP modules are quite cool and creative, but, by design, lack any inherent motivating elements beyond extreme danger and a vague promise of treasure. In discussions elsewhere people have placed most of the responsibility on the DM for integrating sufficient plot hooks into the modules. Fair enough...

This is the first place, however, I've heard people criticizing players for a lack of adventuring spirit.

I'm not sure this is a very compelling discussion topic, as player personality is one game parameter DMs and module writers have little control over. I'd be more interested in hearing how various DMs have effectively integrated the LotFP modules into their ongoing campaigns.

Last edited by cyclopeatron (2010-11-10 18:59:05)

Re: motivating players

I found the authors defense of his review of Insurrection at Death Frost Doom to be irritating. He insisted that he could not add any motivation for his players to explore the cabin otherwise it would not be an accurate review (despite the fact that there are direct references within the module about where and how to add this motivation.) Instead he insists his group of players continue against their will and then expects to be able to get a fair and unbiased review out of them?

I understand that these modules won't please everyone but I don't think it was given the proper opportunity. My group is mostly newbies and likes a 'story' to their game. They would look at me like I was growing a third eyeball if I expected them to walk into the cabin in DFD without a reason. But I knew that and compensated for it and still feel I can give an unbiased review of the adventure.

Re: motivating players

Tao failed majorly at motivating his players.  They knew upfront it was a module, and that he was forcing them through it for a review.  So boo on him, things may have gone very differently if he put some effort into integrating into his campaign.

That said, A lot of DM's don't include serious traps in their adventures, and players are going to be reticent to risk their character's lives in something that's completely different and unknown.  This is human nature.  To blame the players when the campaign has been a combat-focused one is unfair.  Especially in a sandbox, players are going to weigh risk vs. reward, and Jim's modules are clearly way up on the risk side.

I also think a lot of players aren't really interested in re-enacting CAS style weird fantasy.  It's a literary tradition where everyone dies horribly.

I like Death Frost Doom (only read it, haven't run the players through it yet), and believe it treats players fairly.  I'm less fond of Tower of the Stargazer, although in the one-off I ran with that, the players did OK by pointedly ignoring most of the dangerous stuff.

Re: motivating players

cyclopeatron wrote:

The LotFP modules are quite cool and creative, but, by design, lack any inherent motivating elements beyond extreme danger and a vague promise of treasure. In discussions elsewhere people have placed most of the responsibility on the DM for integrating sufficient plot hooks into the modules. Fair enough...

Glad you pointed out the lack of plot hooks is "by design".  Stargazer, Hammer of the Gods, DFD and Grinding Gear are all low on plot, slim on plot hooks, but very rich on evocative location and interesting locations.

If a DM can't work in a sufficient motivation for the players to penetrate the location and persevere to have them finish, he deserves to have them leave.  They are frickin' scary and dangerous locations.

What are DM's expecting?  "Here is a dangerous location, you have no reason to go here, but I want you to do it because I bought the module and it's what I'm running..."  Yeah, maybe that worked when I was in 7th grade playing AD&D on summer vacation.

Re: motivating players

Two months ago I ran Stargazer with three experienced players (and two pregen beginning characters each).  They found the real treasure room quickly, worked out how to solve the puzzle, and got the gold.  Then they decided to explore the rest of it, because why not?  One character got killed by his doppleganger, and others got stunned a few times, but otherwise everyone made it out OK.  (Maybe I inadvertently nerfed it by getting descriptions wrong, or substituting Jenga for chess when players have steadier hands than mine.  Maybe the players were too savvy.)

After the session, I asked the players for feedback.  Generally they appreciated the weirdness and old-school vibe.  One guy with very specific tastes didn't like "instant death" effects; he prefers heroic characters, and he loves Star Wars D6.

Granted, this was a one-shot, but I didn't need any setup beyond "You're traveling and you see these lightning strikes ..."

No real conclusions here, just another data point.

Last edited by fmitchell (2010-11-11 09:01:20)

Frank Mitchell
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." -- Anatole France

Re: motivating players

I'm on the fence when it comes to insta-death and cursed items. They are two things that can clearly drive beaviour. Use it too often and the players will be incredibily cautious. Very cautious players can lead to an over-long, stressful and dull session.

I think if you play back-to-back scenarios from LotFP you might find your game derailed. I slip them in every now and then. After all, if you make every scenario Weird, you defeat one of the goals of the game (play in a mundane world so Weird occurances really stand out).

It's not the years, it's the mileage.

Re: motivating players

If I can get my act together, I plan to run LofTP as alternating "into the unknown" and "back at the town" adventures.  On one side of the river Tauras lies the edge of the Kingdom of Oragnov, where the main dangers are highwaymen, scheming earls, tax collectors (King Svanos Oragnov II likes gold), and unscrupulous merchants.  On the other side lies the Barbarian Lands, wherein one may find bloodthirsty barbarians, elven realms, ruins of long-dead empires, mad wizards' experiments, demons bound into flesh, things from other worlds, and artifacts of the mysterious Ancients.  Not that settled lands can't have weird happenings, as residents of Kaerillus will staunchly refuse to attest as they keep candles burning all night, but the Kingdom is man vs. man while the wilderness is man vs. nature and/or the unnatural.

BTW, one other note I had from my test session was to create a standard "adventuring kit", because experienced players don't want to figure out how much chalk and how many 10 ft polls to bring (apparently), and Referees get a little snippy when someone decides to buy 9 dogs because they're so cheap (based on a sample size of one Referee).  I'm planning to make these features of the world: tales of gold in the wilderness have made tiny border villages into boom-towns, who are all too ready to sell Ye Compleat Adventurer Kit at an immodest profit.  Survival of at least one party member guaranteed or your money back.

Frank Mitchell
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." -- Anatole France

Re: motivating players

fmitchell wrote:

Referees get a little snippy when someone decides to buy 9 dogs because they're so cheap

My players try that. Then they seem horrified as the dogs die one by one. Dogs are not so bright and not so quiet.

Good for tracking and intimidating the peasants though.

Re: motivating players

JimLotFP wrote:

My players try that. Then they seem horrified as the dogs die one by one. Dogs are not so bright and not so quiet.

Good for tracking and intimidating the peasants though.

Mine, too.  I don't think they've really worked out what they're going to do with the 40' ladders into deep pits that I've sprinkled around my dungeon.  They may be in for a nasty shock when they try tying a rope around a Rottweiler and pushing it into a hole.