Topic: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

So I've been making some inquiries here and there about retail distribution. Three things seem to be clear:

  • Adventures are very low margin product, and distributor cuts chop chop chops even deeper into that margin.

  • However, as a sustainable business model, "Just get a few internet vendors to sell the stuff" doesn't seem to be pulling in the big bucks.

  • Going into distribution with adventures means depending on Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry to get to the distribution destinations first, else I'll be sitting on shelves as a support product for a game that's not there.

One solution stands out: Make my own game. Which would of course be a retro-clone. But this would give me a higher-margin item (since full games seem to sell much more than adventures do) and a proprietary brand, which is good for business, and it would solve the problem of relying on other companies to be present in markets I want to be. If people carry my modules, chances are they'll be carrying my game, too.

The Paizo plan, basically.

Three problems with this:

  • The world needs another clone game like it needs a hole in the head.

  • It seems skeezy to make product decisions based on business need, instead of treating the creative and the financial portions of the business separately. I'll be "selling out."

  • I'd then be in competition with Swords & Wizardry and Labyrinth Lord, and the scene doesn't need further fragmentation of that sort, nor do I want to cause any friction with either Finch or Proctor.

So if this is going to be done (and I have other priorities for some months yet), the product would have to be justifiable on a level beyond "It helps Jim's business." It would need to be a product that would be awesome on its own merits.

I'd talked about this some time back, but I always hoped it would be someone else that would actually do it.

But my idea would be to make an all-in-one box set. Rules, tutorials, dice, even a friggin pencil and graph paper. Everything you need to game, right there in the box, and accessible even to someone that's never played RPGs before and doesn't have anyone to show them how.

The present plan for the box:

  • 1 Tutorial Booklet, introducing the rules and concepts, doing a "choose your own adventure" solo adventure, and basically using the Mentzer Basic intro as a guide to format

  • 1 Rules Booklet. Character creation, combat and adventuring rules, spell descriptions, etc.

  • 1 Referee Booklet, including monsters, treasure, adventure design

  • 1 Beginner (for referees and players) Dungeon Adventure

  • 1 Beginner Wilderness Adventure

  • 1 Inspirational Reading Booklet

  • Dice

  • Reference Sheets

  • Pencil + Pad of Graph Paper

It probably won't be cheap, but I won't go for extravagant either. I'll do saddle-stitched booklets, color covers for the booklets and adventures but black and white interior art. A5 sized box.

I'm putting this here instead of on the blog because right now this is just an idea, and not anything actually happening. And I'm looking for feedback and ideas about how to move forward. The priority for the next long while will still be adventures, with the full game idea being something that gets constructed little by little over time.

Thoughts?

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Opening Thoughts About Rules:

It'll be OGL of course, since making a full system from scratch that resembles Our Favorite Game would be quite impossible without it. The game itself would be advertised as a "Standalone Game," while the line of adventures would be "Compatible with a number of traditional fantasy RPGs including LotFP Traditional Fantasy Role-Playing, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, Early D&D editions," blah blah.

It'll model "Basic" rather than "Advanced" games.

My goal is to present some interesting rules variations to give the game its own flavor, but change none of the outward-facing elements. 100% compatibility with all the modules out there for various games and editions, even if the rules don't match up exactly. No tinkering that alters the basic structure.

Examples:

I'm planning on striking Raise Dead and Resurrection from the spell lists. People coming back to life just doesn't happen in this game as a matter of course.

Dispel Magic can be used to permanently disenchant magic items.

Armor and horses will cost a lot more.

That sort of thing, where the game will feel different but you can pick up any module and play it with no conversion beyond adjusting the AC a bit, depending on what game the original adventure was intended for.

The monster section will look wildly different than any game out there, as it'll be more a toolkit than anything else. It won't be as extensive or too closely resemble the Creature Generator (not going to screw around with Goodman like that), but it'll have a similar idea. The "classics" won't be there; it'll be animals, iconic (outside of gaming) monsters like zombies, vampires, and giants, and the toolkit.

This might make modules more exotic to the theoretical person that discovers role-playing through my game. "This adventure has an OGRE! Wow, that's nasty!"

What do you think?

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

"It helps Jim's business." is a very important motivation if Jim wants to stay in business. In support, I'll buy at least 4 copies, some to gift.

I like most of your ideas of how to go about it, and I'm not going to comment on the ones I would do different. Make the product you envision. "This is one of the very purposes of using published materials, to take on different perspectives and styles than you would have on your own."

It's not "selling out" to make a good product based on business need. It's "selling out" when you allow the demands of the marketplace to compromise your creative integrity. Do what's good for your business but make the game the way you think it should be made, create boldly with confidence, and don't worry about what we think.

Not that I'm telling you what to do; do whatever you want. Just my $0.02.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

giantbat wrote:

I'm not going to comment on the ones I would do different.

Then there's no point of me babbling about it in public. I'd rather hear it now than in six months or a year or whatever when I can't change it anymore. tongue

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

I'm encouraging you to make the product you've described. I'll buy it even though it isn't the product I would make, because it isn't the product I would make. I want Jim's D&D, not mine, I can write mine. I have to admit it's good business to give the customers what they want, but I'm also pretty sure if you allow a large sample of customer opinion to change your ideas for the game it's going to become less of what I would like to see.

What I think:

Make my own game. = That makes me excited with anticipation.

The world needs another clone game like it needs a hole in the head. = I disagree with the opinion that there can be too many clones. I'd like to see yours more than any yet published.

I'll be "selling out." = I disagree, as explained previously. Just make the game you've described and don't try to please everyone.

I'd then be in competition with Swords & Wizardry and Labyrinth Lord, and the scene doesn't need further fragmentation of that sort, nor do I want to cause any friction with either Finch or Proctor. = More products make the scene stronger. Finch and Proctor seem cool. I doubt they're going to have a problem with it.

But my idea would be to make an all-in-one box set. Rules, tutorials, dice, even a friggin pencil and graph paper. Everything you need to game, right there in the box, and accessible even to someone that's never played RPGs before and doesn't have anyone to show them how. The present plan for the box: [...] = I love it.

It probably won't be cheap, but I won't go for extravagant either. I'll do saddle-stitched booklets, color covers for the booklets and adventures but black and white interior art. A5 sized box. = Saddle-stitched and A5 are great. I'd be fine with black and white covers.

It'll be OGL of course, since making a full system from scratch that resembles Our Favorite Game would be quite impossible without it. = I hate OGL. Don't listen to me about that.

The game itself would be advertised as a "Standalone Game," while the line of adventures would be "Compatible with a number of traditional fantasy RPGs including LotFP Traditional Fantasy Role-Playing, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, Early D&D editions," blah blah. = Adventure compatibility statement is good.

It'll model "Basic" rather than "Advanced" games. = Keep it that way.

My goal is to present some interesting rules variations to give the game its own flavor, but change none of the outward-facing elements. = Good plan. I would change a lot more. You shouldn't.

The monster section will look wildly different than any game out there, as it'll be more a toolkit than anything else.  = Sounds great. I'll probably like it even more than the creature generator.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Jim:

You have already established that you have your own voice when it comes to fantasy role playing. I think you would generate substantial interest in either a campaign sourcebook or a box set game.

I would like to see a LOTFP box set include a campaign sourcebook, especially if it reflects the sensibilities of your modules. *That* would appeal to those of us who already have a favorite clone. Something DM's could either use whole cloth or crib from.

At the same time, the completeness of a box set and friendliness of a well-done tutorial would appeal to the uninitiated.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

I recommend you put A LOT of time and effort into a section on dungeon/adventure design.

This would give the game a decent raison d'etre--very few RPGs go into that, although it's arguably the most important thing.

It could include:

random tables
advice on how to use random tables
ideas about when and what to prep and what to not prep
a detailed taxonomy of adventure types
linear vs. nonlinear
etc.

That way the game won't just be a LOTFP retro-clone, it;ll be a treasury of Raggi DM advice.

Also, sub-systems for different eventualities (mass combat, etc.) could be used by anybody.

Also, I wouldn't stint on the snark.  Make it fun to read and even seasoned old-schoolers will like it.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Oh also:

Some detailed rules/descriptions/playing aids for resource managment (time scale, food, etc.) would be cool.

Like maybe a DM cheat sheet timeline piece of paper for the GM that showed time scales (turn/round/minute/hour/day) with marks for how long the pcs can go without water, food, light, etc.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

While it may seem that you would be in competition with S&W and LL, it also seems that most gamers into the old-school can't get enough rpg books from which they may draw ideas. Check out the kudos Barrataria is getting for the Companion Expansion, and people are salivating for both Blackrazor's B/X Companion and GG's Advanced Characters supplement. People like me want to mine these for ideas. You say your game will be fully compatible with the retro games? Great! More to draw from! big_smile

I actually chuckled when you mentioned selling out. Dude, you want to make a living doing something you love and there's nothing wrong with that. Worry about selling out when you're writing 5e. tongue

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

JimLotFP wrote:

The present plan for the box:

  • 1 Tutorial Booklet, introducing the rules and concepts, doing a "choose your own adventure" solo adventure, and basically using the Mentzer Basic intro as a guide to format

  • 1 Rules Booklet. Character creation, combat and adventuring rules, spell descriptions, etc.

  • 1 Referee Booklet, including monsters, treasure, adventure design

  • 1 Beginner (for referees and players) Dungeon Adventure

  • 1 Beginner Wilderness Adventure

  • Dice

  • Reference Sheets

  • Pencil + Pad of Graph Paper

James, what about the 6th book you mentioned in your blog?

"The sixth booklet, which would be just a dream (more than the whole idea) and least likely to get in, would be a reading (and viewing) guide. Appendix N come to life, if you will, discussing various elements of the genre and perhaps where the inspiration for certain mechanics originated from. Not in-depth critical essays or anything, just a breezy walkthrough. It will give the whole thing context, because there is no reason to expect that the 10 - 12 year old kid we'd be targeting would have any clue about Jack Vance or HP Lovecraft or even RE Howard, and a lot of the stuff in the game (MAGIC SYSTEM) is just going to seem so foreign and unrelatable to someone whose entire fantasy education is Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter movies."

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Geoffrey wrote:

James, what about the 6th book you mentioned in your blog?

This is all sooooooooooo far away so plans are just fiction at this point anyway, but I'm already worried about cost. People have been having a cow about RPG prices lately, and those are for games with 5-figure print runs. This project would have a 500 copy print run and with all this stuff, even if I plan on packing the boxes myself, is going to be expensive, and that's before figuring in that I'd have to ship it across the ocean to most of the people buying it. (not to mention all the artwork necessary for the project...) Boxes are not cheap; packed boxes in short runs are less so.

I mean, even if I kept the material costs of the project down to 10€ a pop (which is not likely), adding in a less-than-usual markup and the crappy currency conversion rate, we might be looking at a $75 price tag, before shipping. People will bitch and moan and complain while I'm sitting here freaking out about the 5000€+ risk I just took. tongue However, if the plans I'm making actually come to fruition (still haven't heard from the feature model for the photo shoot...), it would look pretty.

That sixth book hasn't been forgotten though. I was just thinking today that it's part of the project I should outsource.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Some inchoate thoughts on this project:

1. I wouldn't worry about interior art. I'd keep firmly in mind that these are just rulebooks, and are inside of a sealed box. The "eye candy" would need to be printed on the box itself, which would need to be completely and totally awesome. Further, the box art would have to appeal to all generations of fantasy fans. It couldn't be something to turn-off the adults ("Damn kids and their computers and manga") or the kids ("What the hell is this lame crap?").

2. I really like your intention of having a random generation of monsters, rather than lists of rust monsters, beholders, etc. I personally think it would be cool if you included an abridged version of your RECG, and a note directing people to buy the Goodman Games version for the full ride.

3. I think you should also avoid a list of magic items. I'd go with random generation of these as well.

4. I'd thoroughly revise the prices on the equipment list to make some sort of sense. I'm glad to see you mention making armor and horses much more expensive.

More later.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Geoffrey wrote:

1. I wouldn't worry about interior art.

There would be the box art, plus at least color covers for all of the interior booklets (if I'm going to do this, I'm not going to do it right), plus each interior booklet at the very least needs artwork to fill the empty page area at the end of every section.

Geoffrey wrote:

It couldn't be something to turn-off the adults ("Damn kids and their computers and manga") or the kids ("What the hell is this lame crap?").

If I can make it happen, it's going to be a photo, big, bright, and colorful. Getting the clothes and armor to look decent (= banged up and muddy) and not awful will be key though. Can't use it if it looks like a posed photo...

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

I think you could get  aLOT of mileage out of public domain historical woodcuts and paintings and stuff. Epees and Sorcellerie did a good job with that.  I mean, if you can have Carpaccio as your illustrator for free, why not use him?

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

I'll deal with the artwork when the writing is closer to completion.

I'll have a rough prelim (and far from complete) rules document to present on the 1st.

In the meantime, the name I'm going to use for the project is LotFP Weird Fantasy Role-Playing.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

"Warning

Police officers, psychiatrists, religious figures, teachers, and concerned parents have claimed that role-playing games are harmful to the mind and are the cause of aberrant behavior, occult involvement, mental illness, and even suicide.

The author can not substantiate any of these claims, but can confirm after a quarter of a century's involvement with role-playing games that many believe he is out of his mind.

Therefore, only those who possess a keen intellect and a powerful imagination should risk the purported dangers found within these pages. All others should stay awa for they are not prepared to handle this powerful and intense hobby."

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

For the reading guide, I'm thinking of it being a 16 page booklet (no cover), with one page per suggested author and an introduction. Remember, this list is intended for someone that just fell off the turnip truck as far as having an interest in this kind of thing.

My prelim author list:

Definites

  • Barker, Clive

  • Howard, Robert E

  • Leiber, Fritz (the amorality of the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser tales bothered Maria to no end, heehee... not standard fantasy fare - as it's thought of today, anyway)

  • Lovecraft, HP (mandatory, in an "encountering the unknown" more than a "MASTER OF HORROR!" way)

  • Moorcock, Michael

  • Poe, Edgar Allan (if I had to name just one author and leave it at that...)

  • Smith, Clark Ashton

  • Tolkien, JRR (as a worldbuilder and presenter of bittersweet endings - not campaign structure!)

  • Vance, Jack (more The Dying Earth than Cugel's stuff, in this case)

  • Verne, Jules

  • Wells, HG

Maybes:

  • Anderson, Poul (might be too "standard RPG fantasy" stuff, but I've only read Three Hearts & Three Lions and The Broken Sword)

  • Arneson and Gygax (Talking about Dungeons and Dragons as an inspirational source rather than any compatibility in game terms - too cheesy to do since this would be so obviously different than any other entry?)

  • Burroughs, Edgar Rice (too 'adventurey'? I honestly haven't read his stuff, which I'd need to before writing anything, so I'm just thinking of reputation here. I have a compiled Martian Chronicles book but the physical book is a pain in the ass to handle - incompetent publisher!)

  • Carrol, Lewis (only read the Alice books... is that a strong enough base for inclusion? Might as well pile in Swift for Gulliver's Travels, Oscar Wilde for The Portrait of Dorian Gray, etc... where to draw the line since we're talking authors, not specific stories?)

  • Dunsany, Lord (wait, in alphabetizing names, is Lord treated this way?)

  • Merritt, A. (always has strong weird mysterious beginnings which end in adventure fisticuffs... maybe the wrong atmosphere for a top 15)

  • Shelley, Mary (only read one book... enough for inclusion?)

  • Stoker, Bram (He did things like The Lair of the White Wyrm and others besides Dracula... but I'm worried his inclusion will send the wrong message... and what's with the Abrahams shortening their names?)

Comments? Additions? Or should I leave it at the top 11 up there and make it a 12-page pamphlet?

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Glad to hear that you're moving forward. Even if I don't like the final result, I'm sure there will be a great deal of content ready to be stolen for use in my own games. In response to artwork, I'd shy away from using anything in the public domain.

Howard, Leiber, Lovecraft, Poe, Smith, and Tolkien are good choices. Though, perhaps it would do well to leave Tolkien out of the book? He's not exactly an unknown and a good number of people have been introduced to his writings. If you want to include Verne or Wells, I think you should look into Burroughs. I'd say they're on par in terms of their...adventurousness.

Perhaps you should aim for 12 pages. 1 for the introduction, 10 for 10 authors, and leave the last page for a list of authors and some book/story recommendations? You could also expand upon the book on your website, and offer it as a *.pdf only download?

And as an aside, you might want to look into some short stories written by Nathaniel Hawthorne--Rappaccini's Daughter, the Birthmark, and Young Goodman Brown. Most people are turned off by the Scarlet Letter, which is a shame, because his short stories are a good source of wonder and eerie dread.

Last edited by Verhaden (2009-12-29 23:35:26)

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Clive Barker? He doesn't quite seem to fit, IMO. If you wanted to include a living horror writer, I'd instead go with Thomas Ligotti, who just might be the finest horror writer of all time. I'm with you on the rest of the definites, though.

From your list of maybes, I'd include three:
Burroughs
Dunsany
Merritt

I'd also include:
William Morris
H. Rider Haggard

That would make 16. smile Other candidates are George MacDonald and Charles Saunders.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

You expressed concerned over being a Fantasy Heartbreaker in your recent blog post as well as similar comments earlier in this thread. My opinion is that if you are presenting all of this as how YOU are using older editions of the world's most popular roleplaying game then you are good to go. Even it if it is in the form of a complete RPG. Also you have the benefit of not trying to do something everybody else has namely the weird fantasy angle.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

I'll second Ligotti. Pure narcotic.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Geoffrey wrote:

Clive Barker? He doesn't quite seem to fit, IMO.

The thing is, I haven't read anything Barker has written in the past 20 years. But up to that point? He absolutely does. (the reason I stopped reading is because absolutely everything after the Books of Blood seemed to have the same plot...) I could take pretty much everything, strip them of modern trappings, and run them as adventures, and they'd fit my style more than Leiber or Howard.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Sounds like I'm going to have to read Barker's Books of Blood.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Version 0.01.

It's not a coherent piece of work, it's not nearly finished, blah blah, but I think you'll see the basic ideas so far. This isn't a new game, just a slight variation of the game, where the differences here can be ported over to other games, or ignored entirely.

One problem I'm having doing the basic writeup of the rules is that I'll be having a tutorial booklet in the box which will introduce a lot of game concepts, so I'm not sure how to introduce them in the rules book. Should it also be explanatory, or assume the reader has either a working knowledge of the tutorial or traditional gaming in general?

Also, I seem to be wavering on whether to use pronouns or not. ah well.

Anyway, here's a first look, the "rehearsal tape" version.

Re: LotFP: Weird Fantasy Role-Playing

Some newer authors that I would recommend:

David Gemmell - Almost all of his stuff is a sword and sorcery and normal fantasy mix.
Glen Cook - The Black Company - dark military fantasy.
Steven Erikson - Malazan Books of the Fallen - dark military Empire fantasy.
Steven Brust - Vlad Taltos is the best assassin stories in fantasy.
Elizabeth Moon - The Deed of Paksennarrion - best paladin series ever.